Steering wheel vibration while braking on steep downhill grades

[mahu]

Just doing a CA, NV, UT trip. On the drive through death valley on some steep downhill grades we experienced shaking of the steering wheel when applying 70-75% brake force breaking from 50mph. The shaking got worse the more brake power was applied. I was using lower gears and using pulsed breaking to not overheat the brakes so I don’t think they overheated.

Tried to replicate it on flats and grades we passed later in the day braking very hard but could not get any shaking.

Any idea what was going on?

I don’t think it’s warped front rotors. Online fora suggest it could be temporary adhesion of hot brake pad material to the rotors, which is then abraded on subsequent braking actions restoring smooth braking.

[ASD Dad]

I hid your second duplicate post under this one.

 

Normally that is warped rotors but if it is not happening on flats then that is ruled out.  The brake pad material idea is possible.  I have only heard of that happening when the vehicle is parked or stopped at a long red light after using the brakes hard (which can also cause warpage).

 

Since it is only when going down a steep grade - what about suspension issues?  Front end would load up faster going downhill and something could be worn or loose.  Pretty much anything steering related could be suspect from bushings to ball joints to who knows what.

[radin2son]

ASD Dad, I had the same issue in the same place as mahu. It is related to ABS and the bulk/weight of the vehicle not the suspension. Putting it in tow mode solves it, but this isn’t available on mahu’s V6. Down shifting to 2nd also helps, but you have to brake hard to get the speed down. Good luck doing this. The shaking is unnerving but controllable.

 

As a result, we in the west have to pay attention to grade warnings. If they are short stretches no problem. For long stretches, I pull over into brake check area to engage tow mode. Am I mistaken that you can only engage tow mode when not moving?

 

ASD Dad and others, you can probably replicate this. Find a long straight downhill, 6-8% gradient, leave it in 4th, coast, get up to a speed you are uncomfortable with, hit the brakes, not panic, hold them, let up and it then hit them again. ABS will kick in and start pulsating the brakes. You feel this in the steering.

 

Same gradient with curves is less likely to cause this as you brake for the curves etc.

Edited October 1, 2018 by radin2son

[Mark Rogers]

For long stretches, I pull over into brake check area to engage tow mode. Am I mistaken that you can only engage tow mode when not moving?

 

The owner's manual doesn't say anything about stopping to engage tow mode.  I've turned it on and off many times while moving and never noticed any issues with it.  However, it can be hard to find the button without taking your eyes off the road, so maybe stopping is worthwhile until you memorize its location well enough to find it by touch.

[radin2son]

I thought you could and did early on. After that, it may have engaged , but I was unable to see “tow” due to the steering wheel; even in the passenger seat, this is hard to see. You are right, the manual doesn’t say anything about stopping or a maximum speed warning.

 

I’m still reluctant to engage it at high speed so will stick to second guessing the need and pulling ito the brake check lane. Faster cars seem to like this...

[andy_george]

Good info Rad!

[mahu]

Thank you everyone for weighing in and the feedback!

We had a bunch more steep grades in UT and NV on the way home but the issue did not reappear.

I also thought maybe ABS but there was none of the usual shuddering or vibration in the brake, it was solely steering wheel vibration and violent left to right motion of the wheel.

Quite strange, must have been a combination of 98 degree heat and steep grades. Tried to replicate it throughout the trip on equally steep downhills until my wife told me she was getting whiplash...

[radin2son]

You are right about no “shuddering or vibration in the brake pedal,” as well as not being able to replicate it. Everything you read says ASD Dad is correct but it happens so rarely even under similar conditions. Going into Death Valley from the northeast and leaving toward the Sierras is where it will happen. Anyone going that way?

 

I couldn’t remember the technical term, but in cycling it is called speed wobble. It can be mechanical, but is also related to frame geometry, rider height and weight as well as rider weight distribution on the bike, as in too much weight toward the rear. Shivering in cold weather can also cause this as I well know on descents. Scary. Fixes are getting off the saddle, leaning forward and gripping the top tube with your knees, putting weight on lower pedal at 0600 position, braking slowly only with the rear brake, and a very light grip on the bars. Some say let go of the bars to break the connection.

 

What does this have to do with NVs? Could be weight distribution in campervans and speed on random descents.

Edited October 9, 2018 by radin2son

[drysuit2]

I have had this issue on my 2016 NV 3500 HD Quigley. And it does not just happen on steep grades but if you hit the breaks hard at high speed say 50 mph +. You do not feel the break pedal pump like normal ABS engagement. Instead the steering wheel shimmy's from side to side. I have replaced my front rotors three times in the last two year. My Mechanic says they are warped, and he has to replace them each time. They are under a three year warantee. But come on.

 

The last time we replaced them was in May, and I started to feel the shimmy again this morning.

 

There has got to be a permanent solution.

[Mark Rogers]

It's possible that the warping is caused by your driving style.  We've had our minivan for a decade and never had any brake issues with it until we loaned it to a relative for a long drive through Idaho and Montana.  She apparently doesn't downshift for the long downhill stretches and prefers to ride the brakes instead.  When we got it back, all four rotors were warped.

[radin2son]

Did your mechanic offer a solution? Unless this is related to the Quigley conversion, few NVs have this issue. The caveat should be

Edited November 21, 2019 by radin2son

[Moose0723]

My 2012 nv2500 just had fresh raybestos HD rotors and pads installed and I'm getting the steering wheel shake at 50mph. It feels fine at lower speeds. Anything I can do?

[aztec]

If it started right after the brake job, one of the the rotors might be out of spec.   Did you put them on yourself?

Edit: To the OP and anyone else having brake judder on long downhill runs, I experienced that on my F150, E150, T1N, and Transit.  Fine everywhere else, long downhill = judder.  Fine on fresh kit, but as soon as they get some mileage on them, there is one particular hill that always triggers it.  I've decided it's a truck thing and stopped being concerned about it.   

Edited June 2, 2020 by aztec

[Rob's NV]

I am getting this Shaking/Vibration on my NV 2500 Van, 2016.

It's dangerous, I'm in here having new front brakes installed again, but I think there is a Steering issue , and or suspension issue, I feel the shaking all the time, especially with weight in the back.

I also noticed if the engine is on, and I'm just sitting in a parking lot for a while, when I do start to drive it again, the steering is very tight at first , them eventually it goes back to normal feel.

Help Anyone ??

[JR Redd]

2016 NV2500. I replaced my front brakes, rotors and pads around 50k miles. This seemed a little soon, but I had the steering wheel shudder issue. I went w cross drilled/slotted. They lasted about 30k miles. Decide to take it to a shop and let them do it since I had shoulder surgery.   Went w heavy duty pads and stock Nissan rotors. Brakes were squeeling, went back and found what appeared to be a defective pad, replaced pads, turned rotors. Apparently a caliper was sticking. Got the steering wheel shimmy within a 1000 miles again. Went back, turned rotors, replaced calipers. Within a couple thousand miles, had the shudder again, turned rotors,  now after 4K miles, I am getting the shimmy again.   I carry tools in the back of my van, but it is by no means loaded down. I have not towed a trailer since all these trips to the shop.  I am not a hard driver. 
This van should not have to be babied/downshifted/tow mode to make the brakes last. If I was pulling a heavy trailer without brakes, then I could understand, but I am not. 
I set up an appointment next week to take it back for the 5 time. This is an excellent shop. They don’t do crappy work. They are scratching their heads. Does anyone have any suggestions??

 

thanks

[Nate]

I’m having this issue as well with my 2014 2500. When I brake, between 55 down to 50 mph I get a violent steering wheel vibration. No shudder in the pedal. It also happens every once in a while on certain bumpy roads while driving and not braking. Has anyone resolved this issue?

[sl1mp1kk3nz]

20016 NV 2500 with the same issue. I always assumed that it was a combination of the weight of my tools+vehicle and insufficient braking power on the V6 model but it sounds like the V8 owners are experiencing the same problem. 

[UT3500HIGHTOP]

2014 im getting same thing i replaced brakes and put drilled and slotted rotors did not help mind you i bought this high top 3500 used with 200g on it looked a little more i had a inner tie rod had very little move meant i replaced it that helped but its back i was looking last night looks like there is a little very little movement in pitman arm imm going to replace that next dose not look fun looks like un bolting box from frame any how i’ve noticed the steering box has some slop in it as well im going to look in to adjusting as well wish me luck by the way it now has 290 g on it its been back for some time i drive it for work every day and its just getting so bad that its scaring me but im in utah up and down canyons all the time and i drive it hard and i do not believe its rotors will see

[Ferrugenfish]

 Same issue with my 2013 2500 cargo high roof. Well first it shook while braking, especially down hill.  Shop said the rotors in front were warped so I bought new ones OE and that seemed to fix the problem.... for a while.

 

Well it Did fix the brake shake, but like the rest of you guys, I started noticing wheel shake not while braking, but while accelerating or decelerating around the 55 mph range (give or take 5).  

 

I do have aftermarket 17" wheels which are a little wider than stock, wrapped with 285/75r BF Goodrich KO2s fyi.

 

Is this happening to people with stock wheels/tire sizes/weights too?  I've been wondering if these axles (which NOBODY makes lockers for?!) are just too weak, or the calipers sticky... shoot I dunno your guess is as good as mine but clearly there is an issue.

 

Frankly the more I think of it the more I'm tired of almost zero aftermarket locker (which the van sorely needs IMO)... and it seems to come down to this axle/diff.  Is it not the same as the Titan or Titan XD?  If so, why the heck are there no lockers available?  Even Advanced 4x4 in Salt Lake City to converts the van to 4x4 high and low range says they won't put a locker on it because... they didn't fully explain but I got he impression that the whole diff houseing and maybe the axle may need to be replaced and at that point there wouldn't be enough people to sell it to cause it would be too expensive.  

 

Anyone know more about this?

[radin2son]

Tim Dahle Southtowne Nissan (385-247-1855) in South Jordan, UT may or may not be able to help with your questions as they converted NVs to 4x4 using Titan parts. Website suggests they still do. Mixed reactions to their response on this site. 
 

timdahlesouthtowne.com has a bunch of videos of their conversion. 

[crusty]

Quit riding the brakes down the hill.  Start downshifting the transmission.  Let the motor zing a bit.  Computer controlled transmission won't let you over rev the engine.

[radin2son]

I don’t think this is what he was asking. 
 

But… you are right about downshifting. Engaging tow mode also helps. 
 

 

[Ferrugenfish]

I assume the OP and most ppl in here aren't 17 years old, don't ride the brakes down the hill, take overdrive off, and go manual when it's steep. Clearly with so many ppl complaining about the same thing, it's an issue with the rigs and not everyone being idiots... but thanks for contributing...?

[crusty]

Actually the opposite, not that many complaints.  If you go looking, yes you will find them.  But far from what I would call common.

Not just 17 year olds with no experience.  I've watched all kinds of people, including those that should know better, ride brakes.  Tour bus drivers, commercial truck drivers.  Trained professional drivers are just as capable of unknowingly destroying brake parts as someone who only knows that one pedal makes you go faster, the other slower. 

 

I also have know enough of these vans with well over 100k on the original brakes that don't have issues.  I'm going to go out and say that most of it is driver induced.  Not much about the loose nut behind the wheel to be fixed. 

 

IF you think you have a set of perfect brakes that don't have any issues, give me 20 minutes and I can toast them for you. 

[radin2son]

Crusty, Just out of curiosity, at what maximum speed/rpm would you downshift to 3rd with manual mode on a steep downhill?
 

I don’t think there is a problem with NV brakes; rather, these are heavy vans that pick up speed quickly on long downhills. Paying attention to gradient, brake check and runaway ramp signs goes a long way to finding the right gear at the top.