Ram Promaster, conversation with it's driver

[MrOlaf]

I was about to pull out of my mother in law's drive way when a dodge ram promaster pulled up the the curb and the driver got out and was looking around his vehicle.  I decided to ask him how he liked it and was waiting for the typical "it's great, much better than my chevy express etc etc."  On the contrary this guy (he didn't own the pro master but it's what his company has given him to drive while he does repairs of some type of machinery in a grocery store)  Regardless he pretty much hates this promaster.  He mostly complained about the way it handled, he said the ride was ungodly stiff to the point where he is scanning the road ahead of him for potholes to brace for them.  The cargo area was mostly empty but it did have racks and a partition so it did have some weight in the back.  He also complained of the step in height of the back bumper being too high.  Also his last complaint (which I was actually able to see for myself) was in the drivers seat there is very little room between the structure of the drivers chair and the wheel well.  Essentially he can not slide his foot out of the vehicle, he literally has to lift his foot about 5 inches to clear this area then step down to the entry step.  It looked very awkward and I could see how that could get annoying quickly.  This was also his 3rd day with this vehicle.

[andy_george]

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to converse with the guy and let us know what he said. For me, when the time came to compare vans for our family, the Promaster never made the consideration list. I like the general package (Transit style) but the amazingly ugly front end, spindly looking rear axle that just gets dragged along, and unproven reliability kept it clear of our radar, even if they made a passenger version.

[Chris Dempsey]

I thought it was just me with my size 13 work boots, but when I test-drove the Promaster, I tripped every time I got in or out. The first couple of times, I thought maybe I was the awkward one, but I soon realized it was the Ram. It's not "quirky", it's poorly designed. Very happy I bought the NV.

[radin2son]

Truck Trend has a RPM video promoting front wheel drive on a snow packed hill vs a FT. Watch it, then click done and click on the RPMcity road test in the west. Interesting in how they tested them, but also gives a sense what it is like to drive out here.

 

The RPMcity is not a bad looking van. Bigger than the FTconnect and NV200?

Edited January 30, 2015 by radin2son

[Chris_CommercialManager]

The back end on the truck when behind it just doesn't look right, I couldn't agree more.  The fwd is about the only thing I find interesting about that truck.  Not that I like it but I do understand a case could be made for it in the correct application.

[radin2son]

It looks too flimsy for the size of the van and that it would bounce all over like an empty trailer. It might just be the angle.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I'm trying to be really nice on this topic....in all honesty I literally have nothing nice to say about that vehicle, or the way most dealers handled the service of a European product when they had the rebadged sprinter.  I just can't imagine what the driving factor would be to purchase one of those.

 

I am jealous though that they do offer different configurations and a cab chassis.  I would love to have that

Edited January 30, 2015 by Chris_CommercialManager

[radin2son]

Chris, the CM,

 

No reason for you to be nice, but you are overplaying brand loyalty to put it mildly, and not taking this topic as you previously stated, loving all things automotive for many years.

 

Almost everyone on this forum has a NV. Many have expressed why they made this choice and

share your automotive passion, just not for the industry. Why? We are vehicle consumers, curious about what is out there, often with no intention of changing our vehicle. Does this type of topic belong? Sure. Most posts will be supportive, maybe even brand loyal.

 

The Ram ad was clever. Aside from ignoring NV as a competitor, it may have made an indirect, valid point about NVs. In Canada, a couple asked us if our NV was fwd, then immediately lost interest. That was their deal killer. You would think 4x4 would have been the question. We also have been asked if it was diesel with the same result...

[MrOlaf]

is this the commercial in question?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUyhKJNejHA

 

 

To be honest I think my NV would be stuck lower on the slope lol.

 

Also I'd like to point out that I had to make the video full size because I couldn't tell the difference between the vehicles.  The front ends are nearly identical.

[andy_george]

the commercial was shot in Houghton, MI. Home of Michigan Technological University, where 2 brothers and myself attended college (admittedly, mine stint was only 6 mos. tho). Amazingly beautiful area, especially in the winter!

 

Good for Ram, when making a commercial the idea is to make yourself look better than the competition. Fwd has the advantage in this test, no doubt. But the slope doesn't look that steep, with momentum I would have expected the Transit to hold it's grip and continue.

 

My in-laws in Nebraska have an extremely steep driveway. I'd say it's 30 degrees. Almost hard to walk on it's so steep. No one believed my Savana with Blizzaks would make it up a couple winters ago when they had crazy snow there. The whole week it never spun once, unless I made it lose traction. They were blown away.

 

Haven't been there yet in the NV, but just a couple weeks ago here at home we had a good snow drift in the driveway, at least 12", maybe 16". I tried my hardest to get stuck, couldn't do it. With good snow tires you can get into a bank, stop, hit the gas and it drops down, and unless you bottom out, you will progress. My dad has owned 7 Ford Superdutys, in Michigan, never had 4wd, never been stuck. Literally never.

 

I'm sure people get sick of hearing me preach this;). But my point is this: if you are intersted in better snow traction, why beg Nissan for a 4wd option to make you pay thousands more upfront, carry around all the weight and complexity for the life of the vehicle, and probably give up another 1-2 mpg, when a $1000 set of tires will last 6+ years, AND help you when you need to stop and turn, unlike 4wd.

 

Rant over....;)

[radin2son]

I agree that the point of this ad was to make RAM's fwd look good. Nissan was better off being left off the invite list. I' m sure the invite would state M&S only.

 

A tow test would be interesting... In the RAMcity video, they show them pulling UHaul trailers in Colorado. No mention of what was inside, but the implication is they can tow.

[andy_george]

My guess is that the towing capacity would be very limited? Any weight put on the hitch comes, basically, right off the front wheels. Just as any load placed behind the rear axle would do the same.

 

The Ram is unique, good for them to go after those buyers looking for a fwd full size van. But I'd have to think that would eliminate a fair amount of interest also....?

[MrOlaf]

The back end of the promaster looks like something is missing, the rear bumper is so small.  Sometimes in my chevy express i would backup and bump a telephone pole and just laugh cause I know the bumper is steel and already had some dents in it from a previous owner.  The bumper would only be marred and not have a dent.  

[Chris_CommercialManager]

Chris, the CM,

 

No reason for you to be nice, but you are overplaying brand loyalty to put it mildly, and not taking this topic as you previously stated, loving all things automotive for many years.

 

Almost everyone on this forum has a NV. Many have expressed why they made this choice and

share your automotive passion, just not for the industry. Why? We are vehicle consumers, curious about what is out there, often with no intention of changing our vehicle. Does this type of topic belong? Sure. Most posts will be supportive, maybe even brand loyal.

 

The Ram ad was clever. Aside from ignoring NV as a competitor, it may have made an indirect, valid point about NVs. In Canada, a couple asked us if our NV was fwd, then immediately lost interest. That was their deal killer. You would think 4x4 would have been the question. We also have been asked if it was diesel with the same result...

 

I don't disagree about the commercial, and I also don't disagree with your brand loyalty statement when comparing to the dodge.  I do see validity in other products (Transit and Sprinter) and more importantly the dealerships that must service them.

[radin2son]

I know little about the NV200 (very few posts) and even less about the RAMcity. Based on the road test video, I think they "1upped" Nissan and Ford and benefitted from delaying this product. I wonder if their plan includes replacing the Caravan with this. GM is selling(?) the NV200 clone, but delaying their large van... Bet it will be more like NV than the Euro style vans.

 

We are into our NV for the long term, 10 years at least, mainly due to how we use it.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I know little about the NV200 (very few posts) and even less about the RAMcity. Based on the road test video, I think they "1upped" Nissan and Ford and benefitted from delaying this product. I wonder if their plan includes replacing the Caravan with this. GM is selling(?) the NV200 clone, but delaying their large van... Bet it will be more like NV than the Euro style vans.

 

We are into our NV for the long term, 10 years at least, mainly due to how we use it.

 

On paper I would agree with you that pro master looks good from a spec standpoint.  I do not like that they matched our warranty but kudos to them, but the whole point is not to have to use it and the Nissan badge on the front is a BIG driver for buyers.  But in this segment price is the driving factor period end of story.  The dodge is a quite a bit more than the ford or nissan.  These are fleet vehicles.   90% of the NV200's I sell are to corporations or individuals who will never be driving them.  I have not sold a single one to a person anywhere near max cargo or looking to tow a thing.  The buyer/driver market is just so small.  And then even within that group 50% of them come in and say, I don't need floor mats, I don't want cruise control, I don't need power locks, this will be my work truck and I want the cheapest one with as little to no electronics as possible.

 

On a side note, can you imagine a 9 speed transmission?  My daily driver is a 78 bronco with 3 speed c6.  When I jump into my hummer I always ease on to the throttle on the highway to prevent downshifting because I'm just over obsessed with wear and tear which may be a little silly.  I literally can't imagine how much that vehicle is shifting.  It must be constant.  The war that's going on right now between the CVT and multiple speed tranny has been heating up.  I don't know how I feel about this but I think we will see CVT's in almost everything.  It's just such a simplistic design.  I wonder at how many speeds these transmissions will max out at.    

[Mc2guy]

On a side note, can you imagine a 9 speed transmission?  My daily driver is a 78 bronco with 3 speed c6.  When I jump into my hummer I always ease on to the throttle on the highway to prevent downshifting because I'm just over obsessed with wear and tear which may be a little silly.  I literally can't imagine how much that vehicle is shifting.  It must be constant.  The war that's going on right now between the CVT and multiple speed tranny has been heating up.  I don't know how I feel about this but I think we will see CVT's in almost everything.  It's just such a simplistic design.  I wonder at how many speeds these transmissions will max out at.    

 

CVT's will continue to become more relevant as their reliability increases (which they have over the last 10 years).  In heavy torque applications, however, CVTs have a long way to go.  There are many CVT designs, but the conventional ribbed steel belt pully system is generally torque limited since the belt has to get very large, heavy, and expensive, to withstand starting heavy vehicle loads.  As such, you will be probably continue to see 9-10 speed conventional transmissions developed to maximize efficiency in larger vehicles.

 

Additionally, because CVTs are so complex (simple in theory, but not in execution), they generally cannot be serviced.  Usually, they are replaced if there is a problem, which makes them a more expensive proposition for vehicles with long service lives such as HD trucks and vans.

 

I personally believe the NV would do great with an 8 speed conventional automatic, and would consider upgrading if one were offered.  Preferably in combination with an updated V8. The 5.6L is tried and true, but it is an old design using old technology.  If Nissan could increase compression through use of GDI, you would see some serious efficiency gains.  This, more than a diesel, would entice me to go back to the dealer...

[radin2son]

I have not looked at the specs, and don't intend to, but based on first impressions of the video, the RAMcity (RAMPMcity is too much) looks both larger and substantial, it's available(?) in a full window version, has a rack rail system and can tow. With the demise of the Element, I think this will be a good alternative for cyclists, climbers and campers. For commercial users, it wouldn't hurt to have a tow option.

 

I imagine Truck Trend will get around to a long term and comparison tests The long term NV200 test was positive. (So was the NV2500).

 

Maybe the next NV200 will offer some or all of the above. Probably won't change your sales base.

 

2/6 FTL (For Truck Lovers) did a comparison test. No conclusive winner.

Edited February 6, 2015 by radin2son

[radin2son]

Ready for the VW Caddy, 4th generation city van? It is exclusively diesel, by will be both gas and diesel if it gets here after June. Name change likely.

 

The scary part is that the first generation was the Golf pickup in the 80's.

 

Talk about global manufacturing. PMcity is built in Turkey, Ford Connect is built in Spain, NV200 is built in Mexico (also Japan, China, Indonesia, India and Spain) and the VW is built in Argentina (also Germany, Spain, maybe elsewhere?)

[radin2son]

You had to figure Hyundai Commercial would join the party, or may be not. Looks like another Euro version with diesel.

[andy_george]

The euro-style will probably dominate the American van sector from now on, I'd guess. I'm interested what GM does when it's time to replace their vans.... Whether they stick with their current formula or join the euro club.

 

Either way, Nissan should see decent interest in the NV for a long time to come, hopefully. The euros are a great package for their intended purpose, but I'd think there will be a chunk of buyers who want a full framed, van bodied, pickup-nosed (for serviceability), van capable of towing for a long time yet....

[radin2son]

I too agree with Nissan's chosen placement in the van market for all the reasons you mention.

 

If GM only slightly modifies their current van, they may pick up some of the E series business users, whose vans need replacement. Although this segment may not opt for GM's 4x4 or diesel, Nissan would do well if they offered both.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I too agree with Nissan's chosen placement in the van market for all the reasons you mention.

 

If GM only slightly modifies their current van, they may pick up some of the E series business users, whose vans need replacement. Although this segment may not opt for GM's 4x4 or diesel, Nissan would do well if they offered both.

 

 

We just discussed a whole bunch of this and the bottom line is that Nissan seems dedicated to staying in the "body" on frame business partly in due to GM.  Every single sign points to GM bringing in a EURO product.  And that is straight from the brass.  And as for 4x4 I don't see why after having table talks about this why it would ever happen.  If snow tires won't cut it for some reason you do have quigly and it is a good option.  

[Bates]

It's price and it's shift on the go 4x4.  

 

It costs 11k for quigley, 5k for shipping a high roof from Pennsylvania, some fees at the border and then convert to Canadian dollars.  It's 20k plus up here to add the conversion and we are the ones that want it the most. 

 

Vast bulk of what we sell up here is AWD or 4x4 in the Nissan lineup.  I literally have had conversations end with prospects(repeatedly end) when I say its RWD only. (before I could bring Quigley into the country, now they run away at sticker shock for the upfit).  

 

If Nissan added 4x4 for something silly like 8k per unit it's all I would order for inventory and my sales would explode.  Lots of trucks bought up here for the 4x4 and space kaps added instead of buying a van.

 

I got stuck in the drive through at Tim Hortons(coffee shop) a while back with a empty factory 2wd version.  Yeah, winter tires are tremendously helpful, yes weight in the back is a must. Despite all this there is still no beating 4x4 for our weather here.

[radin2son]

Could costs might be reduced if the buyer, here or Canada, ordered a 4x4 NV/Quigley from Canton through the dealership? Something close to a Quigley option package done at or very near the factory.

 

What 4x4 options does a business van buyer have in the north? GM? If the numbers are there, the 4x4 option package might work.

 

Moving people and towing is a different story. We have never seen so many very large 4x4, modified diesel, 4 door trucks towing the longest trailers possible as we saw on the first long weekend in May. Even with manufacturing plants in Canada, these can't be cheap. How does a 4x4 NV compare in price?

Edited February 20, 2015 by radin2son