Manual Shift Mode

[VStar650CL]

Update:  I don't have a '12 here on the lot, but I tried it on a '15.  Either NNA is wrong about the "press and hold" or they've changed the firmware between '12 and '15.  I couldn't reproduce it in that manner.  BUT, I could cause it every time with just a bit of gentle pressure on the button.  In fact, I triggered it accidentally once as I was shifting into drive, with my thumb in the natural position on the end of the lever.  I bet that's responsible for a lot of instances.  I think it could be completely prevented by making a "button guard" from a suitable diameter of rubber hose extending just beyond the end of the knob.

[radin2son]

What hasn't been addressed in this discussion is the possibility of disengaging the manual mode accidentally or not at all when you want to return to overdrive or auto mode, eg., stop light before getting onto an interstate onramp. How are you going to get it out of 2nd without pulling over? 3rd (listen to those revs) or 4th gear can handle it.

 

User error, when the problem is poor design? At least the key cycle fixes it.

[VStar650CL]

No, the firmware doesn't work that way.  When it throws the DTC, it always reverts to automatic shifting.  I presume that's the reason, so you can never get stuck in a manual gear.

[ASD Dad]

V Star confirmed what I found out this morning.  On my 2015 I could hold the button down, paddle down, or both down for as long as I wanted and it never failed once.  I tried all three of those several times up to 30 seconds long and it still worked.  I'll try the gentle pressure thing later today but I still doubt that is what caused mine to fail twice on that trip.

[VStar650CL]

Unless the button itself is failing intermittently, it's really the only thing that can cause the behavior.  It is, after all, a "button check" algorithm.  According to the engineers, except for actual failures in the button or associated wiring, they've never seen it occur from any other cause.

[ASD Dad]

Just got back from a 35 mile drive - tried pushing it all the way in, tried just resting my finger on the end just enough to depress it slightly, and everything in between.  Still worked every single time...  I even tried it going from Park to Drive as you did, still worked.

 

Something isnt consistent.  I'd actually like to get it happen so I can see what could be doing it but I cant make it happen, it did it on it's own.

[wollip]

ASD Dad -

If you will, try it this way: do the light contact by running your finger around the circle formed by the inner edge of the bezel and the outer edge of the button. Then try to do the quick center tap.

This has worked for me today but not every time.

While this is reproducible (at this point for the service tech and myself), I'm still not convinced that it covers all of the occurrences I have experienced - and over the course of the last 4 weeks I have a bunch of them. No pattern emerges and that bothers me.

[radin2son]

Wollip and ASD Dad, I went back and read your original posts. Wollip, you wanted to use it descending and needed more than just braking; ASD Dad, you were pulling your RV up a hill, if I got this right. From the standpoint of the "button algorithm," not sure I even know what this means, it shouldn't matter, that is, turning off/on overdrive is no big deal. But what about speed in the first and engine load in the second instance. What if?

[wollip]

To your question first, I don't think it matters in either case. But what do I know, I can't even push a button properly :-)

 

Obtaining control of manual shift mode is something that should never be denied - even if you are in your driveway with your foot on the brake. The same goes for when you are on a perfectly level road just wanting to utilize a lower gear in bumper to bumper traffic.

 

I think Gene addressed your concern about the possibility of getting stuck in manual shift mode. I will add that during this whole process I have NEVER had any problem with shifting via the paddle or exiting manual shift mode. It is just the random denial of access to manual shift mode that is baffling me.

 

I'm certainly no expert but I think your concerns about downshifting above a certain speed causing damage are probably just a case of overthinking the problem. In your case, you know to use common sense and, as you have indicated, wait until an appropriate range of speed is reached. If someone asked for 3rd while going 75 down the interstate, the control module in charge would delay that request until speed is reduced to the appropriate range.

You might sometimes hear a revving of the engine when downshifting but I don't think it is hurting anything. Think of the end of the earth sound any vehicle makes when you put the pedal to the floor to engage passing mode - sounds awful but no harm done.

[wollip]

Gene suggested something to restrict access to the button -

perhaps it is more accurate to say focus your attention

as you press the button. Here is what I will be trying for the next

few days. The washer is slightly over one inch with a 1/2

inch hole. I attached it with some electrical tape -

nothing fancy yet since it is still just a test. It only allows

me to touch the dead center portion of the button. And, yes,

I also wonder why I should even have to be doing this. But, as

ASD Dad has indicated, we just need to get to an answer.

[radin2son]

But you did have a problem or foresaw a problem relying on braking on steep hills when the button failed. The fact that the automatic remains functional helps, but the randomness of the button malfunction can't lessen your concern.

 

Whatever the engineers intended or what the best use is, I'll continue using and liking it.

 

You're right, you shouldn't have to fabricate your own fix, suggested by Gene or otherwise.

[wollip]

"....when the button failed."

 

I think I understand that they are suggesting that the button didn't fail at all - but that it had already been deactivated. How? They have to be suggesting that unconciously or arbitrarily I touched the button long enough (2 sec) and lightly enough to throw a P1815 code before the obvious "failure" that came later in the same cycle. And that I have done this multiple times over the last 4 weeks after having never done it even once in the previous 3 years. And if that is so, I would have no way of knowing it because no warning is displayed onscreen (which is perhaps a safety concern in itself).

I've pretty much worked thru my initial defensiveness about this "easy fix" and really just want to test out any suggestion that might lead to a viable solution.

I'm still as much of an NV fanboy as ever - I love my van, enjoy driving it, and always look forward to showing it to people who seem drawn to something so different from the usual. I just need a solution that restores my confidence in the hardware enough to get us back out on the road.

[ASD Dad]

I dont need to drive anywhere today until later but will try just lightly touching the button first and then tapping it.  I was trying all sorts of stuff trying to make it act up and it always worked.  That in of itself is great but when I need it and it doesnt work randomly is terrible!

 

rad - I use it mainly towing.  I downshift ahead of time when coming up on a hill to put the engine in it's higher torque band and I also use it for engine breaking occasionally.  Engine breaking on a gas engine really doesnt do a whole lot unless you are revving it quite high but it does help on steeper descents.  I have noticed if I brake hard enough in Tow mode it will downshift and hold it so that also helps.  

 

rad - the ECU is smart enough to not allow you to over-rev the engine.  If you tell it to go into 2nd gear on the highway it will just ignore you until you have slowed enough to downshift.  I am 99% sure that it will also override manual control if you are lugging the engine at too low an rpm and then floor it to say pass somebody.  It will then downshift. I havent tried that recently but thought it did once when I forgot I was in manual mode and had to pass somebody.  

[radin2son]

Wollip, I understand my "what ifs" don't offer a solution, so no more...

 

Somewhere I read about the 3 year warranty expiring at midnight, scheduling a service appointment on line and later dealing with Nissan. They covered the part ($500) and the dealership charged for diagnosis. Was that you?

 

If so, Nissan paid to replace the part, a part that "NNA" now says is not the problem. Your, or a phantom, hand is resting on the shift column and/or your shift habit/technique are the problem. Yet, you have your NV without a problem for 3 years. Solution? If you go deeper into the system, it will be on your dime.

 

ASD Dad, My first automatic was a '99 Accord 4 cyl and my last standard was an '02 Civic Si. I'm not worried about high revs in the NV, drive it much like you and wouldn't want a standard transmission. My concern was a "what if" the manual mode failed when in 2nd and to what degree the ECU is involved in this system. In reality, it is a lockout mode with the auto transmission working with whatever gears are not locked out. Yes, you manually lock/unlock gears.

 

It appears no one else noticed what I did when locking out 4th. Similarly, only you, Wollip and KMG had a problem with locking out 5th. I bet there are very few people using this feature, or it is robust enough that there have only been 3 problems. Good news for the rest of us.

Edited November 14, 2015 by radin2son

[ASD Dad]

ASD Dad -

If you will, try it this way: do the light contact by running your finger around the circle formed by the inner edge of the bezel and the outer edge of the button. Then try to do the quick center tap.

This has worked for me today but not every time.

While this is reproducible (at this point for the service tech and myself), I'm still not convinced that it covers all of the occurrences I have experienced - and over the course of the last 4 weeks I have a bunch of them. No pattern emerges and that bothers me.

 

Didnt work.  Tried it about a dozen times.  I WANT this to work so I can see what is going on.  Oh well, it only happened on one trip (twice) but it happened.  I'll be towing again soon enough with some 10+ hours drives towing it so maybe I will play with it more then.  Shouldnt really make a difference other than being in Tow Mode...  That wouldnt explain your issues though.

[VStar650CL]

Sorry I haven't jumped in lately.  I've been preoccupied with a couple of nasty water-leak cases the past few days.

 

ASD, if you can't make yours do it, I don't know why.  I've now tried every NV on our lot (total of 7) and they all did it readily with gentle pressure.  I'm tempted to think maybe your switch was built on a better day than the rest of them.

 

After talking to Wollip on the phone, he told me perhaps he was pressuring the button "in anticipation of a shift" when he was on hills where he knew a shift would be needed.  I can relate to that being a left-footed braker, I often catch myself unconsciously "dragging the pedal" in anticipation of an upcoming decel or stop.  Same principle.  My feeling is that Wollip's washer-guard will work fine, if not as neatly as a purpose-designed ring or boot. 

 

For the record, I'm as disappointed as anyone that this problem exists at all.  Like the chain of events leading up to any accidental crash, there are multiple design issues in play, changing any one of which would "break the chain" and obviate the whole issue.  A snap-action mechanism, a recessed button, a much longer error-timeout.  Change any one of them and the whole problem disappears.  Aargh.

 

I told Wollip I plan to investigate button-protection boots in the electronics supply houses, Mouser, Newark, Digi-Key etc.  If I come across something that looks nice and has the right diameter and depth to slip over an NV shifter, I'll let y'all know.

[wollip]

Update on Manual Shift Mode problem /

 

Gene said early on when he referenced Sherlock Holmes that, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. "

I've spent parts of the last four days testing Gene's explanation of the meaning of the P1815 fault code that was finally captured. During that time I have left the washer (my "fix") taped to the end of the shift lever restricting my access to the button. With the washer in place I can only press the dead center of the button.

During these four days of testing I have not had the button deny access to manual shift mode - which is to say that I have not generated a P1815 code during that time.

 

I cannot argue with that result.

 

But I am left with a nagging question of why, after 3 years of absolutely no problem, I have suddenly had multiple occurrences. And we are also left with ASD Dad's statement that he can't duplicate the forced failure that Gene described and I was able to recreate prior to taping on the washer.

 

Perhaps the one thing Nissan needs to consider is the fact that, whenever and however a P1815 code is generated, there is no warning given to the driver that manual shift mode is disabled. You stand the chance of finding that out at a very inopportune time.

 

Nissan Consumer Affairs (which has been great during all of this - thanks Vic)

has assured me that they remain open to providing assistance with this situation should I have future occurrences. I accept that with thanks.

 

I also want to thank North Point Nissan

(Brad, Gene, Fred) for their helpfulness and patience during the entire process.

 

But for now - this button pushing idiot is getting back out on the road :-)

[ASD Dad]

Update- I had it lock me out today!  Problem is, I cant duplicate it.  I was just driving down the road and started checking it again and it was working.  Then - it stopped working completely.  No clue what I did different to cause it to lock me out.  It was totally dead until I restarted the van and then it has worked since perfectly and I cant duplicate it.  I honestly want to be able to duplicate it so I can try and get some sort of understanding what is going on.

 

Oh, this too - my Bully Dog reads ECU codes so when it locked me out I had it do a ECU dump to see what it was reading.  Zero codes came up on the reader.  I still had the engine running and I was still locked out when I tried to read the code.  I wanted to see if it showed P1815 but it told me ECU was 100% OK.  I even scanned it twice. 

[wollip]

ASD Dad - thanks for that update. I think VStar650CL plans to continue monitoring this thread - which is apparently far from dead. Hopefully the two of you can work towards a solution. I'm still not certain I have a solution - feels like more of an impasse.

[ASD Dad]

My van goes in for routine service today so I plan on bringing it up just so it is on record. I know they will tell me they have never heard of it and would want me to duplicate it but I cant so we'll see how that goes...

[radin2son]

Wollip, good to hear your solution works. Let the cast at North Point Nissan know that they already are on our list of "positive experience/service" dealers and I for one will stop by for service if I'm in the area.

 

It's funny that the new Titan XD has gone with a column shifter. Wonder if it will use the same manual mode. The reason for the column shifter makes you wonder who is in charge, the engineers or the interior decorators? The stated reason was the need for more room in the center console and 8 cup holders. I hope they are joking.

[VStar650CL]

ASD, chances are a regular OBD-II pocket reader won't upload the P1815.  The TCM throws the code, not the ECM.  Most pocket readers only read the ECM and sometimes the ABS and Airbag.  Chances are you'll need a higher-end reader.  Since it's going in for maintenance, I'd suggest having them put the CONSULT3+ on it and see if it's still there (it may have cleared through SRT if it's been too many key cycles since it occurred, but it's certainly worth a look).

[ASD Dad]

Already took my van in for service but I did tell them about it.  They didnt say anything but did note it in my file so if it happens again I have something on record.  

 

The BD GT isnt technically a OBD pocket reader like a Scangauge, it is just a "perk".  Its an ECU flasher/tuner.  I bought it for towing but it made such a dramatic difference in how well the NV drives I leave it "tuned" all the time!  I uninstall it for service work and I really dont like how it drive stock anymore!  

[axulsuv]

I've yet to have issue with my manual mode control  , turn it on , OD. locked out . :) I use mine mainly for downshifting for some compression braking while traveling . (ASD will know the grades I mean in the north west corner of our state , and the joining states ...) And occasionally for a steep climb when stuck behind a semi in traffic...

   And Vstar , good to have a current Nissan tech on here  now too , I've been twisting wrench's for over 40 years now , But I gave up my GTR tech position a few years ago due to some strange management issue's ....I mainly do british restoration work now and play with my motorcycles ....

 Glenn 

 

And the issue could be intermittent temp./humidity based connector/terminal issue .The most fun to pin down ... You know how small the terminals have gotten now..... 

Edited November 26, 2015 by axulsuv

[Daniel Strange]

I hope you all are still reading this post!  This problem still exists. I own

a 2015 NVP SL and towed my trailer from SLC, UT to Disneyland, Anaheim, CA

over Thanksgiving.  The drive down was pretty smooth with no issues. However,

on the way back is when my manual transmission problems started.  



The weather was about 70-73 degrees, so very cool for that area of California

which leads me to believe that was not an issue.  I towed out of the LA valley

around noon and had no issues.  We stopped and had lunch after that steep

climb at a truck stop and stayed for about a half hour in a town between

Victorville and the LA Valley climb.  To be safe, we stopped again for fuel 

in Barstow, because we knew it would have cheaper fuel prices than Baker.  

Just north of Baker, CA is a 17 mile long uphill grade.  This hill is the 

reason we bought this van, at 11pm in our old Yukon, towing the same trailer 

with smaller kids, It couldn’t do over 30 mph and overheated exponentially. 

The NV was a champ, it was towing on the flat ground around 75-80 mph with

no movement on the temp and transmission gauges.  



As I approached the hill, I let the van gradually decelerate to 55 mph and

then engage the manual shift.  I did not turn it on at this time though.  

After I slowed a little more to around 48mph, The van started to rev high 

around 5000 RPMs, so I downshifted to 4th.  RPM went down to 2500 and it 

sounded so much better.  I climbed the hill at a steady 50 mph (and I had 

to make a huge effort to not go faster). Keeping an eye on all gauges (oil,

trans, RPMs) nothing ever moved.  About 12 miles up the climb though without

 warning, the manual kicked off and I was back at 5500 RPMs and in overdrive.  



This remained off going back down the 7 mile steep downgrade and I had to 

ride my brakes as much as I could.  We stopped for the night north of Vegas

and started our trip again the next day.  We made two climbs, one 10 mile 

(2,000 ft elevation) and one 3 miles (1,000 ft elevation) and the manual 

shift worked fine.  On hill 3, only about 2 miles long and not very steep, 

the manual shift again disengaged.  



At this point, my van odometer was reading 19878 miles.  Not an old van.  

Upon returning home, I scheduled a service appointment and my love for this 

van has since taken a huge downturn!



First, I scheduled the 20,000 mile recommended inspection according to the

service guide we received with the owner’s manual.  That is where my customer

support/service gripes come in to play because they didn’t know they existed 

and had no idea what I wanted and charged me $100 to do the same inspection 

they did that day with my oil change!  



So back to the subject at hand, this is the conversation between me and the

Service desk guy:

Me: Why did it turn off?

Service Guy: The tech said the computer just shuts it off when it gets hot.

Me: Well what is that temp because my gauge didn’t show it was hot?

Service Guy: I’d have to ask the tech.

After returning:

Service Guy: There is no set temperature, it just does it when it wants to

Me: (background, I am a computer guy) Computers have to be programmed, they

don’t just do that.

Service Guy: Well this does.



Let’s just summarize the rest and state, I left feeling 100 times stupider 

and more annoyed after talking to the Service guy.  They eventually came out

 and said “It’s because you have after-market tires” on it. To which I again

 asked for an explanation which they could not provide.



So I immediately called Nissan Consumer Affairs.  The guy I talked to didn’t

speak English, and when the next guy called back 3 days later, my case only

had my name on it and that my tires caused my vehicle to overheat.  Not an 

accurate description since I had told him this whole story.  The second CS 

Rep called me back and told me the dealer said same thing.  I was instructed

that I would NEVER be allowed to talk to an actual engineer or service rep 

who knew what they were talking about.  



Now, 2 months later, I am still waiting on an answer.  The biggest problem 

is that there are only 3 NV dealers with a 250 mile drive of SLC, UT.  



Here’s what I need:

1.	An actual answer to this issue with a fix for it

2.	If the tires are the issue, Tim Dahle Nissan (worst dealership ever) 

needs to give me the stock rims and take back the ones they sold me the 

vehicle with.

3.	Get customers support from people other than the dealership they 

are having the issue with.  That is why Corporations have a customer support 

section!



Or if those don’t happen, Nissan needs to take the van back and pay of my 

loan.  This vehicle has dropped from a sale price of $42,000 (with $5K for 

rims and 2 tv’s for our 6 kids) to a value of $27K in a little over a year 

(Nov 7 2015 purchase).



Either way, my wife and I were looking to buy this in diesel if that ever 

happens, but now we want out of it.  Everything to do with service and 

customer support has been a pain in the behind.  I guess we will have to 

try Chevy or GMC next since Ford no longer has the full sized, tow-capable,

van…

Edited January 28, 2017 by Daniel Strange