IMO..... Why the NV deserves the Cummins Diesel

[andy_george]

So we bought out NVP SL last fall, and a major reason was so we could pull trailers. Namely a camper. And just a week ago we picked up a used 30' Keystone Hornet. Nothing special, but clean and relatively cheap, it'll serve our needs very well.

 

On the drive home, about 80 miles, it pulled fine. The camper is about 6800lbs, and with a big frontal area, so it was obvious it was there. We have an Air-Safe hitch we used, but no weight transfer bars for this trip. It swayed just a little, but I expect 95% of that to go away when I switch out the 45psi winter tires and bolt back on the oem, 10ply, 80psi Firestones.

Even the way it was, perfectly acceptable. Stiffer tires and weight transfer bars should make it perfect.

 

Heading to Florida within the next few weeks, from Michigan, for a couple week vacation. I'm super spoiled, and have only pulled trailers with torquey diesels my whole life. Ford pickups, Freightliner Sportchassis, an old school bus, and class a motorhomes. The 5.6 pulled fine, I know it's built to take it, but it's just an eye opening experience to pull with a gas motor vs. a diesel. You just don't have mountains of grunt, and a lot more shifting and speed loss is normal. Again, not complaining or saying it's out of the norm, just something I'm less familiar with.

 

So with nissan just unveiling the Titan and the cummins motor, it's got me thinking. They claim to be aiming for the "gray area" of heavy-duty half-ton pickups. That's all great, and I hope they sell a ton more Titans because of it. But if they stuff the Cummins in the NV, it's not a gray area, it would be the only modern player in the class. ( does GM still offer the derated Duramax in the van? If so, the NV package is still a lot nicer and more modern)

 

It would be a great alternative for people that want to carry a ton of people or stuff, and still haul big trailers. Of course, I'm sticking with mine for the next 10 years because I've gotta get my money out of it, and it will do a fine job with anything I ask of it, I'm confident. But with a sweet package like the NV mated to a sweet Diesel, it seems sinful not to bring the two together eventually.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I would love love love to see a diesel option in the large NV and the NV200.  Would be a pretty easy sell and a nice compliment to the lineup.  

[Mc2guy]

They probably will offer it at some point just because it should be easy to transfer over from the Titan with little/no issue fitting into the NV.  That said, you really are looking at a narrow market segment... buyers who tow a lot with a van on a consistent basis willing to pay for the PERFORMANCE (not economic) benefit of a Diesel.  

 

With the bevy of emissions control systems on modern diesels, they are very expensive to buy, maintain, and operate.  While efficiencies are generally 30-40% higher, this is largely attributed to the energy density of diesel being higher than gasoline.  The retail spread on diesel is now over 50% higher than regular unleaded in most areas, more than negating the efficiency gains.  Furthermore, the increased maintenance costs on a diesel combined with the increased up front cost really make the decision difficult to justify unless you absolutely require the marginal performance increase.

 

Of course, we are also talking about vans here.  There are a lot more applications in a pick-up where the performance requirements supersede the economics. Would you buy a $50,000 NV Diesel knowing diesel is $3/gal while gasoline is $2/gal?  

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I'll disagree to some extent and tell you that I don't think it would be that narrow of an audience.  Some examples... Many expediters drive 60,000 miles plus a year.  The diesel would have an extended life cycle with that individual vs gas.  There are a TON of expediters out there.

 

Also, in Chicago where I was previously at much of the labor workforce and tradesman were immigrants to our country from European nations and have only worked on and serviced diesels, and are flat out more comfortable with them.  They would never even consider gas.

 

I do understand your point with potential costs like clogged dpf filters from bad gas and all those related issues but that did not curb sales for me ever when I was with sprinter.  It was a constant steady increase in diesel sales year over year.....still is heading north to.  Your only seeing more and more because they are starting to make ALOT more sense since the days of the smoking on start up diesels of old.

 

Also, there's no way you'd have a spread like that.  They would come in well under the sprinter and the sprinter starts at about 38k give or take.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Chris_CommercialManager

[Mc2guy]

I'll disagree to some extent and tell you that I don't think it would be that narrow of an audience.  Some examples... Many expediters drive 60,000 miles plus a year.  The diesel would have an extended life cycle with that individual vs gas.  There are a TON of expediters out there.

 

Also, in Chicago where I was previously at much of the labor workforce and tradesman were immigrants to our country from European nations and have only worked on and serviced diesels, and are flat out more comfortable with them.  They would never even consider gas.

 

I do understand your point with potential costs like clogged dpf filters from bad gas and all those related issues but that did not curb sales for me ever when I was with sprinter.  It was a constant steady increase in diesel sales year over year.....still is heading north to.  Your only seeing more and more because they are starting to make ALOT more sense since the days of the smoking on start up diesels of old.

 

Also, there's no way you'd have a spread like that.  They would come in well under the sprinter and the sprinter starts at about 38k give or take.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the diesel is a $10,000 option, or close to it.  The NV SL Passenger lists for $41,000.  Add $8-10k and there you go.

 

Also, you are comparing the NV to the sprinter, with its low tow capacity small displacement diesel.  A 5.0 V8 Cummins is a far cry from a 2.1L inline 4.  They are not designed for the same customer or the same need.  Unless you are towing a lot of weight around, the Cummins is overkill in the NV.  Also, the reliability record for the Sprinter is one reason you wouldn't want a diesel...at least a Mercedes diesel.  

 

It's all conjecture, so I'll leave it at this: If the NV does get the diesel, I'll be shocked if more than 5% of buyers get one because the up front and operating costs simply don't pencil if you work the numbers.  We'll see if Nissan can prove me wrong.

[andy_george]

Ahh, the gas vs. diesel debate. Nearly as fierce as the Ford vs. Chevy debate:)

 

The sales numbers of the NV are surely a lot lower than the Titan, but the percentage of commercial NV's vs. commercial Titans would me much, much higher. I'm simply speculating, but I'd say generally commercial buyers lean more towards diesels than gas in a vehicle this size. True, they are much more complex than the old days, and amazingly more expensive, but generally they are still very reliable (with life expectancies double that of most gas motors), and the performance is absolutely amazing.

 

Lots of people need diesels for towing, even more people THINK they need one. I'm just speculating that since Nissan now has the pieces, a lot of commercial buyers would be willing to give the Cummins a shot.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

Ahh, the gas vs. diesel debate. Nearly as fierce as the Ford vs. Chevy debate:)

 

The sales numbers of the NV are surely a lot lower than the Titan, but the percentage of commercial NV's vs. commercial Titans would me much, much higher. I'm simply speculating, but I'd say generally commercial buyers lean more towards diesels than gas in a vehicle this size. True, they are much more complex than the old days, and amazingly more expensive, but generally they are still very reliable (with life expectancies double that of most gas motors), and the performance is absolutely amazing.

 

Lots of people need diesels for towing, even more people THINK they need one. I'm just speculating that since Nissan now has the pieces, a lot of commercial buyers would be willing to give the Cummins a shot.

 

You may find this suprising.......I am in Charlotte city limits so it's a more urban environment (though I"m nowhere near city center) I sell considerably more NV's than Titans.

[pttdds]

You may find this suprising.......I am in Charlotte city limits so it's a more urban environment (though I"m nowhere near city center) I sell considerably more NV's than Titans.

This thread has been very interesting to me.  I spent months with a local Mercedes dealer aiming to get a Sprinter.  I  got totally frustrated by the round and round experience.  One happy day I wondered back over to the Nissan dealer who had our unit on their lot -- our 2014 NV passenger.

 

Subsequently my enjoyment driving the NV was enhanced by learning that I had dodged a bullet, that I had suspected but not really know about, regarding servicing the Sprinter.  Add to that the unexpected drop in gas, but not diesel, prices has added to my feeling quite pleased.  So have only 2K miles on our NV, but it is so nice to motor around with that big old V8 turning over at just a bit above idle rpm.  What a pleasant feeling indeed!  It would be nice to get better mileage, but not worth the hassle of maintaining a complex Mercedes diesel.  

 

I will be following the progress of the new Ford vans over the next few years.  They seem to be getting their act together.  However I much prefer a more tried and true and simpler design of our NV to a new kid on the block Ford which is bound to have teething problems after such a huge change.

 

Having used diesel tractors over the years I have an appreciation of how well diesels handle loading.  The potential for a future Cummins diesel option remains interesting and was helped a lot by your observations.

 

More NVs than Titans!  Wow!

 

Thanks all. 

[DennisV]

A factory built 4X4 Cummins Diesel NV 3500 . . .

 

Oh Lordy !

 

And it could be easily done too.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the diesel is a $10,000 option, or close to it.  The NV SL Passenger lists for $41,000.  Add $8-10k and there you go.

 

Also, you are comparing the NV to the sprinter, with its low tow capacity small displacement diesel.  A 5.0 V8 Cummins is a far cry from a 2.1L inline 4.  They are not designed for the same customer or the same need.  Unless you are towing a lot of weight around, the Cummins is overkill in the NV.  Also, the reliability record for the Sprinter is one reason you wouldn't want a diesel...at least a Mercedes diesel.  

 

It's all conjecture, so I'll leave it at this: If the NV does get the diesel, I'll be shocked if more than 5% of buyers get one because the up front and operating costs simply don't pencil if you work the numbers.  We'll see if Nissan can prove me wrong.

 

I do disagree with you on the cost but, in any event we will see soon enough with what it adds to the titan in terms of price.  

 

Also, I don't disagree that they are fundamentally different powerplants, however I do think they could go after the same customer, and to go a step futher that a cummins powered NV could make a compelling case to that customer, and or the chevy express w/6.6l diesel buyer.

 

The fact of the matter to me is that the nissan is unique, it will probably be the only body on frame van left, meaning it will bar none be the most stout option in this country, in this segment.  We already know Nissan is committed, it's almost assured we have an extended van coming.  If Nissan can provide me with a diesel NV that can run 400-500k with original drivetrain under commercial conditions, and keep that option sub 6-7k, I KNOW I could sell the heck out of them.  Servicing costs more for sprinter, but when I could walk a customer at any point in time to the back lot and know there would be a service truck back there with 350-600k on the original drivetrain that is one heck of selling point, despite the elevated costs.  

 

It wouldn't be right for everyone but it would provide me at the dealership level with more market coverage.

[Bates]

Talk about market coverage....A guy called yesterday asking about a cutaway/cab&chassis NV with "that new diesel".

[Chris_CommercialManager]

Talk about market coverage....A guy called yesterday asking about a cutaway/cab&chassis NV with "that new diesel".

 

Oh geez......I would love a cab chassis.  Then the possibilities are endless.......

[Tatunka]

If you guys look at your dash warning lights, there are already spots for DPF, Exhaust High Temp, and 4x4. So Nissan has already been thinking about this, I just hope it's sooner than later.

[Bates]

When I toured the factory I was with a line supervisor, he told me when the line was originally setup it was setup to do 4x4 as an option.He said some of the build stations still have 4x4 as a selecting option on the buttons (although obviously inactive).

 

I do hope they'd add it. I got stuck a couple of weeks ago at the coffee shop drive through window thanks to 2wd, OEM tires and no weight in the back.

[Chris_CommercialManager]

We're really naming alot of things I would LOVE to see from a sales perspective.  I do think Nissan is committed and time will offer most of these things......  I mean heck look at the NV200 Taxi

 

Out of....

4x4

Extended version

Diesel

Cab chassis

 

I'd love to see a diesel.

 

Bates, I already know you'd want 4x4, talk about a great selling tool up there in the snow.  Jeez, it would be a slam dunk

[HERvan]

We got the 2500 NV low roof for the towing capacity and bigger engine.  We were originally tending to Ford, but with the Econoline line (pun!!) ending, we opted for the better capabilities of the NV .  We would have LOVED to have gotten the NV with a diesel; we tow a horse trailer, and would have liked the extra "grunt".  Some of our trail ride places get pretty boggy, so a diesel AND 4x4 would have been the perfect ride.  A pickup wouldn't do, as we also take our three dogs and crates with us on our horse camping trips.  But, we will keep the NV for at least ten years, probably longer, if the maintenance costs remain low.  Fuel prices are what they are, and one has to take the ups and downs in stride, as cost of ownership.  HERVan